tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38439093.post116794188380865385..comments2023-06-12T08:18:03.994-04:00Comments on The Psychological/Philosophical Theology Of God: In The Beginning: Understanding Creation And Who Created ItLA Sunsethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00445498119590721449noreply@blogger.comBlogger82125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38439093.post-1168347835100506722007-01-09T08:03:00.000-05:002007-01-09T08:03:00.000-05:00LASunsettThat God! He's always messing with me.......LASunsett<BR/><BR/>That God! He's always messing with me....it must be some kind of deity humor. :-DMary Ellenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07835150057881066641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38439093.post-1168340827504634382007-01-09T06:07:00.000-05:002007-01-09T06:07:00.000-05:00ME,No No No. Not the last drawing ME. The NEXT one...ME,<BR/><BR/>No No No. Not the last drawing ME. The NEXT one. <BR/><BR/>Are you <B>sure</B> you asked for the right ones?<BR/><BR/>;)LA Sunsethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00445498119590721449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38439093.post-1168319285205741792007-01-09T00:08:00.000-05:002007-01-09T00:08:00.000-05:00Oh...BTW, LASunsettGod said he sent me these numbe...Oh...BTW, LASunsett<BR/><BR/>God said he sent me these numbers for the Power Ball last Friday,but I wasn't paying attention because I was blogging. <BR/><BR/>Here are the numbers, were they any good?<BR/><BR/>1 24 40 49 50 (38)PowerballMary Ellenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07835150057881066641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38439093.post-1168316572733348772007-01-08T23:22:00.000-05:002007-01-08T23:22:00.000-05:00ME//Besides, it's SF's fault,//Absolutely, it alwa...ME<BR/><BR/><EM>//Besides, it's SF's fault,//</EM><BR/><BR/>Absolutely, it always is.<BR/><BR/>;)LA Sunsethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00445498119590721449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38439093.post-1168314769961340222007-01-08T22:52:00.000-05:002007-01-08T22:52:00.000-05:00LASunsett//I think almost everyone here has done e...LASunsett<BR/><BR/>//I think almost everyone here has done extremely well handling such sensitive topics here and all are to be commended. Let's not get frustrated too much here in the opening rounds, we have time to get around to everything more specifically, as time goes on. It's not a do or die thing.//<BR/><BR/>Don't worry, I'm not in the least bit frustrated! I just don't like to let certain things slip by. You know...the spirit of debate and all. ;-) I think ms.miami knows me well enough to know that it is nothing more than any other discussion, nothing in the least bit personal, at least on my end, that is. :)<BR/><BR/>Besides, it's SF's fault, he's the one who told me that the French love to debate. I learned everything I know from his blog! <BR/><BR/>I've enjoyed your blog and appreciate the venue. Maybe you can come up with a topic on Islam. I'd love to learn a little about that.Mary Ellenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07835150057881066641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38439093.post-1168313766905043182007-01-08T22:36:00.000-05:002007-01-08T22:36:00.000-05:00ms. miamiit's kind of hard to argue with someone w...ms. miami<BR/><BR/>it's kind of hard to argue with someone who says they believe in some of the synoptic gospels (mine quotes came from Matthew, so I'm not sure what the problem with that was...) and then when given information pertaining to that text,to say, you don't believe in that "portion" of the text. <BR/><BR/>//despite your doubts, i can assure you that i really understand christianity (both catholicism and protestantism, less with eastern orthodox), however, i disagree with its tenets.//<BR/><BR/>Of course, I'm sure you think you do,but,I will always have doubts when someone can't come up with a better argument than "that's just my view". I guess I prefer to back up what I'm saying with actual scripture. <BR/><BR/>Well, the discussion about religion will go on until the end of time, I'm sure, which is why LASunsett will be very busy with this blog!<BR/> :-D<BR/><BR/>It was fun anyway. Have a nice evening, ms. miami!Mary Ellenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07835150057881066641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38439093.post-1168311609049638842007-01-08T22:00:00.000-05:002007-01-08T22:00:00.000-05:00me- this will be my last comment on this thread.de...me- this will be my last comment on this thread.<BR/><BR/>despite your doubts, i can assure you that i really understand christianity (both catholicism and protestantism, less with eastern orthodox), however, i disagree with its tenets.<BR/><BR/><I>they are quotes</I><BR/><BR/>this is what people have quoted as the words of jesus. i do not assume that he actually said these words. <BR/><BR/>i believe that there is some truth within the synoptic gospels (matthew, mark & luke), but take anything written by john or paul with a giant grain of salt (mostly because these writings are inconsistent with the synoptic gospels).<BR/><BR/>beyond that, i only view the bible within a greater historical context, which shapes my view regarding what jesus of nazareth was most likely trying to do.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38439093.post-1168310780486141332007-01-08T21:46:00.000-05:002007-01-08T21:46:00.000-05:00ms.miamiOk...lets look at it this way...you said:/...ms.miami<BR/><BR/>Ok...lets look at it this way...<BR/><BR/>you said:<BR/><BR/>//rapidly departed from the actual message of jesus of nazareth (who, in my view, aimed to reform judaism).//<BR/><BR/>and I replied:<BR/><BR/>//Jesus explains His view of the law very quickly after giving the beatitudes: "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill" (Matthew 5:17)...//<BR/><BR/>and...<BR/><BR/>//For example, Jesus' scathing denunciation of their hypocrisy in making a show of religion, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence ...For you ...indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness ...You also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness" (Matthew 23:25-28).//<BR/><BR/>Those are both, direct quotes from the text of the Bible. No? It isn't my interpretation, they are quotes. <BR/><BR/>How else would you interpret them? <BR/><BR/>You said you felt Jesus was trying to reform Judaism, He said He was not there to reform. I could also show other quotes from the text that also backs that up,<BR/><BR/>So, if you want to discuss text, that's fine. But when I find text that disputes your claims, that is fair. But to turn around after I find those texts (not interpretation of texts, mind you) to say that you don't believe that the Bible is factual doesn't make sense. <BR/><BR/>Also, you speak of Jesus of Nazareth (whether you believe He is the Christ or not is irrelevant) was trying to reform Judaism, therefore you must believe something in the Bible is factual, otherwise, how do you come up with that statement?<BR/><BR/>I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just trying to be sure that misconceptions on what the Christian faith is,is not distorted by misunderstood or false information. <BR/><BR/>Does that help? I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I'm just trying to figure out what you are saying.Mary Ellenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07835150057881066641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38439093.post-1168308532908150752007-01-08T21:08:00.000-05:002007-01-08T21:08:00.000-05:00me- nothing i've said is factually incorrect since...me- nothing i've said is factually incorrect since we are discussing interpretation. <BR/><BR/>i'm very familiar with the bible, but i only look at it within its original cultural context. <BR/><BR/>if you re-read my comments, you'll notice that i've never claimed that 'nothing' in the bible is based on fact. nor have i claimed that the word trinity appears in it. however, you are claiming that i am making such arguments.<BR/><BR/>i understand that you feel that your view is fact, but you and i have different criteria for what constitutes a 'fact.' and that's ok.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38439093.post-1168307714507139052007-01-08T20:55:00.000-05:002007-01-08T20:55:00.000-05:00ME,As I often say, sometimes it's hard to understa...ME,<BR/><BR/>As I often say, sometimes it's hard to understand points others are making in the blogosphere, especially when the subject matter is deep, like this is. But I think I finally have the crux of MsM's argument figured out and if I do understand her correctly, I am able to say that her point doesn't sound all that unfounded. That is not to say that what you are saying is unfounded. I see both points.<BR/><BR/>But here's the thing here, it's awfully hard to cover 6000 yrs of Bible history, which I personally have been studying for 27 years, in a few posts. I wish it were easier, but it's not. Poor Anonim's head is swimming right now, I am sure. (Hi Anonim)<BR/><BR/>So, as we evolve the topics more fully down the road I will put things up that will cover some of this, if not the majority of it. We do have awhile to do this.<BR/><BR/>To everyone:<BR/><BR/>I think almost everyone here has done extremely well handling such sensitive topics here and all are to be commended. Let's not get frustrated too much here in the opening rounds, we have time to get around to everything more specifically, as time goes on. It's not a do or die thing.<BR/><BR/>I, frankly, am quite surprised at how much interest has been shown, in just four posts. I have spent almost two years at PYY and have yet to get anywhere near 100 comments in one post and the Welcome Post here, generated that. I am well-pleased.<BR/><BR/>Thanks to all.LA Sunsethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00445498119590721449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38439093.post-1168305072974476092007-01-08T20:11:00.000-05:002007-01-08T20:11:00.000-05:00ms.miamiNo problem...I just like to make sure if s...ms.miami<BR/><BR/>No problem...I just like to make sure if someone who is going to argue against a faith or dogma, they have their facts straight. It's difficult to claim that a book is not fact with misconceptions as to what is in the contents of said book, that's all I am saying. I gave you actual quotes from the Bible that verified my point. If you choose not to believe anything in the Book is based on fact, that's your perrogative, but I can't see how you can argue or discuss dogma of the Christian faith regarding the Trinity when you don't have your facts straight. It's like being in a debate about WWII and not knowing w what battles took place.<BR/><BR/>So, yes...I agree to disagree with you based on my facts..not views.Mary Ellenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07835150057881066641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38439093.post-1168303812103194712007-01-08T19:50:00.000-05:002007-01-08T19:50:00.000-05:00me- the difference between you and me is that you ...me- the difference between you and me is that you consider the bible to be a 'factual' text and i don't.<BR/><BR/>as with lasunsett, we'll have to agree to disagree.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38439093.post-1168303257007255092007-01-08T19:40:00.000-05:002007-01-08T19:40:00.000-05:00ms.miamiSorry, I didn't get to this right away, I ...ms.miami<BR/><BR/>Sorry, I didn't get to this right away, I had grocery shopping to do.<BR/><BR/>Views are good,but when your facts are wrong, it gives a skewed view. For example...<BR/><BR/><BR/>//in fact, i believe that christianity (esp. via paul and john) rapidly departed from the actual message of jesus of nazareth (who, in my view, aimed to reform judaism).//<BR/><BR/>Jesus explains His view of the law very quickly after giving the beatitudes: "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill" (Matthew 5:17).<BR/> Jesus had no intention of destroying or revising the law. He even tells us not to even think such a thing. Far from being antagonistic to the Old Testament Scriptures, He said He had come to fulfill "the Law and the Prophets" and proceeded to confirm their authority.<BR/><BR/> Jesus makes it very clear that those who follow Him and aspire to His Kingdom have a perpetual obligation to obey and uphold God's law. He is saying that we cannot diminish from the law of God by even a jot or tittle—the equivalent of the crossing of a "t" or dotting of an "i."<BR/><BR/>The value Jesus placed on the commandments of God is also unmistakable—as well as the high esteem toward the law that He requires from all those who teach in His name. His disapproval falls on those who slight the least of the law's commands.<BR/><BR/>For example, Jesus' scathing denunciation of their hypocrisy in making a show of religion, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence ...For you ...indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness ...You also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness" (Matthew 23:25-28).<BR/><BR/>This is what I mean about misconceptions being made about Christianity. I could give you many more scripture readings that varify what I say. I'm not trying to trip you up, but what you are giving aren't "views", they are just plain untrue. It's not a good idea to base your views on material that isn't factual.Mary Ellenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07835150057881066641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38439093.post-1168298350667193422007-01-08T18:19:00.000-05:002007-01-08T18:19:00.000-05:00oops- typo."nowhere have i told you that you're wr...oops- typo.<BR/><BR/>"nowhere have i told you that you're wrong..."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38439093.post-1168298282044354372007-01-08T18:18:00.000-05:002007-01-08T18:18:00.000-05:00It just came across to me that you were saying a g...<I>It just came across to me that you were saying a group of people got together, not that long ago and tried to construct events to fit their faith.</I><BR/><BR/>i believe that they constructed an <I>interpretation</I> of the hebrew bible to fit their view and their objectives.<BR/><BR/>in fact, i believe that christianity (esp. via paul and john) rapidly departed from the actual message of jesus of nazareth (who, in my view, aimed to reform judaism).<BR/><BR/>having a different point of view shouldn't be a cause of offense. nowhere have i told you that your wrong. i've only presented my own view.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38439093.post-1168297015868278412007-01-08T17:56:00.000-05:002007-01-08T17:56:00.000-05:00I was trying (badly, I guess) to make the point th...I was trying (badly, I guess) to make the point that we didn't borrow anything, that it was the prophesies that were already written in the Torah, a book that belonged to them, that convinced the Jews who followed Christ that He was the Messiah. Of course, those who followed Jesus the closest,the Apostles and Disciples , were taught by Jesus the context of the Trinity, which I said earlier, the word Trinity wasn't used, only the concept of the word. They knew, by their belief and following of the Laws of the Prophets that God existed, they knew that He would send a Messiah and they were told of the Holy Spirit, also contained in the Torah, i.e. before the creation of the world, the Spirit was brooding over the waters (Gen. 1:2). The Spirit inspired the artistic skill of Bezaleel (Exod. 36:1), the triumphs of Joshua (Deut. 34:9), and the strength of Samson (Judges 14:6).<BR/><BR/>It just came across to me that you were saying a group of people got together, not that long ago and tried to construct events to fit their faith. That isn't true, of course, it was the history of events, from the time of the Old Testament, until the completion and fulfillment of those scriptures that is what our faith is based. Our Christian faith started with the death and Resurrection of Jesus which was given to us in the prophesies of the Old Testament, and continues to this day. That's why I took offense by the term that we just took some old Hebrew text and made it fit what we wanted it to say. I hope that makes better sense.<BR/><BR/>I agree...you don't have to agree with my view, but I am also careful to correct any misconceptions that may arise.Mary Ellenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07835150057881066641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38439093.post-1168293920240225272007-01-08T17:05:00.000-05:002007-01-08T17:05:00.000-05:00me- none of my comments referred to whether or not...me- none of my comments referred to whether or not the trinity is "true" or "exists."<BR/><BR/>my comments were solely about the use of an ancient hebrew text to support a christian idea.<BR/><BR/>judaism does not accept the idea of the trinity since this has nothing to do with their interpretation of the messiah. <BR/><BR/>the christian view that passages of the hebrew bible forsee and, therefore, confirm christian concepts is <I>a</I> view. many other views exist.<BR/><BR/>i understand plenty, i just disagree with your view.<BR/><BR/>lasunsett- merci ;)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38439093.post-1168293591751091262007-01-08T16:59:00.000-05:002007-01-08T16:59:00.000-05:00Oh...and it might help to explain, the Trinity is ...Oh...and it might help to explain, the Trinity is described as God IN three persons...not three persons IN God, which bears out LA's thought (and mine) that God, Son, and Holy Spirit are three different entities.Mary Ellenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07835150057881066641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38439093.post-1168293342703536332007-01-08T16:55:00.000-05:002007-01-08T16:55:00.000-05:00//me- yes, this is how christians choose to interp...//me- yes, this is how christians choose to interpret this text. //<BR/><BR/>the problem lies here, if someone does not believe in the Christian faith, they can claim until the cows come home that the trinity, or the tri-unity is only an interpretation that is wrong, or that it doesn't exist. The Jews don't believe in Jesus as the Messiah, however, they do accept that God IS sending a Messiah, who is God made man. They also believe in the Holy Spirit, part of the trinity. They believe in God, they believe God is going to send a Messiah who is God made man and they believe in the Spirit of God. Read the Old Testament and you will see it. This is why the "interpretation" of the tri-unity or Trinity is correct.<BR/><BR/>Just as you said that the Old Testament was "borrowed" by the Christians shows how little you understand about the connection between the two. In Matthew 7:12 it says, "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets."<BR/><BR/>"The Law" referred to the first five books of the Bible, the books of Moses (Old Testament) in which God's laws were written down. "The Prophets" referred not only to the writings of the biblical prophets, but also to the historical books of what came to be known as the Old Testament.<BR/><BR/>Yes, it's true, the Old Testament is the Jewish Torah, but it also belongs to the Christians as the first part of their Bible. It isn't borrowed because it explains the prophosies that are fulfilled with the coming of our Messiah.<BR/><BR/>You may not believe in it, but you dismissal of it's interpretations doesn't hold water, unless you can show me another "interpretation" of what God, Messiah (Son), and Holy Spirit is supposed to mean, that is. <BR/><BR/>You don't need to backtrack to see this, BTW. Start from the beginning, it makes more sense.Mary Ellenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07835150057881066641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38439093.post-1168291505015489742007-01-08T16:25:00.000-05:002007-01-08T16:25:00.000-05:00MsM,//if one begins with a desired result and back...MsM,<BR/><BR/><EM>//if one begins with a desired result and backtracks, it is easy to make a text 'say' whatever you like. interpreting the text outside of its orginal context, however, will not get you close to a probable intent of the authors or the original reception of the text.//</EM><BR/><BR/>I don't always agree with you, but I do appreciate the way you stir the gray matter. I do agree with this in part, but alas, I will have to post on this in some fashion, at a later date. Bear with me, it's going to be awfully hard to publish what has taken me 27 years to study, in a few posts and comments.<BR/><BR/>Thanks again Ms. :)LA Sunsethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00445498119590721449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38439093.post-1168286802371539602007-01-08T15:06:00.000-05:002007-01-08T15:06:00.000-05:00The Old Testament was written with the prophesies ...<I>The Old Testament was written with the prophesies of the coming of Jesus</I><BR/><BR/>me- yes, this is how christians choose to interpret this text. <BR/><BR/>however, for hundreds of years (if not thousands considering the oral tradtion), this text was and still is the hebrew bible and was originally written without any trinitarian context.<BR/><BR/>if one begins with a desired result and backtracks, it is easy to make a text 'say' whatever you like. interpreting the text outside of its orginal context, however, will not get you close to a probable intent of the authors or the original reception of the text.<BR/><BR/>again, everyone is entitled to interpret how he/she wishes. i am simply pointing out some of the problems with such an interpretation. <BR/><BR/>furthermore, the hebrew bible continues to exist on its own merit for millions of jews without being a "preamble" to the christian new testament.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38439093.post-1168286679554699552007-01-08T15:04:00.000-05:002007-01-08T15:04:00.000-05:00GregNah...it just reminded me of a toy that one of...Greg<BR/><BR/>Nah...it just reminded me of a toy that one of my favorite students gave me once. It was a hand puppet of a nun wearing boxing gloves, and you could actually make the arms move like it was hitting you. It was hilarious! I think I still have it stored away in a box somewhere. Gee...I wonder what he was trying to tell me? :-DMary Ellenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07835150057881066641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38439093.post-1168286033478499712007-01-08T14:53:00.000-05:002007-01-08T14:53:00.000-05:00ME: a wind-up nunzilla, at that! Who picked that ...ME: a <I>wind-up</I> nunzilla, at that! Who picked that out for you, one of the haters on the other blog??Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38439093.post-1168279637644340142007-01-08T13:07:00.000-05:002007-01-08T13:07:00.000-05:00LASunsett//It is the responsibility of Nanc to con...LASunsett<BR/><BR/>//It is the responsibility of Nanc to conduct herself according to good blog etiquette, at least on this blog. I do not feel she has done that.//<BR/><BR/>Exactly... and the problem wasn't so much whether she disagreed with the comments regarding the post,just poor manners in making stupid accusations and insisting on answers to things (like my age or where we lived) that was surely none of her business. <BR/><BR/>Maybe she just thought she was being funny and didn't pull it off very well. At least that's what I hope it was. Maybe she'll come back and explain herself. <BR/><BR/>It would be nice to block the site thingy (do you like my high tech computer talk?). It doesn't show up on my computer, but I think that is because of adblock.I didn't realize that anyone could tell on any blog the exact town where I live. Obviously, I am computer illiterate.<BR/><BR/>Greg:<BR/><BR/>Regarding your theology courses is high school...you never had ME for a teacher! Do you like my "Nunzilla" picture next to my name? :-DMary Ellenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07835150057881066641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38439093.post-1168278379650614882007-01-08T12:46:00.000-05:002007-01-08T12:46:00.000-05:00Greg,//Is God one entity or many? I'll never hear ...Greg,<BR/><BR/><EM>//Is God one entity or many? I'll never hear an answer that will satisfy me either way.//</EM><BR/><BR/>As ME said earlier, it is not important as many other things. It's certainly not as important as it would seem by reading this thread or many others that will come. ;)LA Sunsethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00445498119590721449noreply@blogger.com